Common Confusions: Authenticity in Relationship with Children

Nurturing a Child’s Consciousness:
Grow Together in Conscientious Relationships

Podcast Transcription of

Common Misconceptions:
Authenticity in Relationship with Children

Josette Luvmour, Ph.D. & Ba Luvmour, MA
with host
Brandy McCray, MA

A Production of
Transformative Learning Foundation
www.transformativedynamics.org

Copyright © TLF, Brandy McCray, Ba & Josette Luvmour, 2026

Brandy McCray | 00:04
Hello. I'm your host, Brandi McCray. For the podcast, Nurturing a Child's Consciousness. This is a podcast about relationship, consciousness, and well-being, especially as those realities live in children and the adults who care for them. This is a space to explore wholeness. Each episode invites us to look at how we know our world, and how children know theirs. What becomes possible when relationship, rather than performance, becomes the foundation? If you're a parent, an educator, a caregiver, or simply someone who can feel that life holds more than just managing and getting through the day, you're in the right place.
Hi everyone, welcome in.
In today's podcast, we explore common misconceptions that arise when adult expectations do not align with a child's developmental reality. We discuss why emotional transparency and internal coherence matter more than performance, perfection, or technique. And how relational honesty strengthens connection.
So to get us started, I'm curious. We know that many adults and parents genuinely want to connect and support with children.
Why are there often gaps in understanding between adults and children?
And how do misconceptions about the child arise?
Ba Luvmour | 01:23
So, as we talk about misconceptions today, the first thing that we hear so often in seminars and different places is that, “Oh no, if a misconception happens, is it somehow so challenging that the child is wounded or doesn't recover or is somehow fatal to the relationship or will have long-term negative effects.”
But, it's important to notice that it is not the end of the world. Well-being is close to the surface. And all we have to do is reorganize in order for it to come forward. Remedies which are lifestyle changes will be spoken to in the next podcast.
But, for now, we would just like to point out the misconceptions and start to talk about how to bring well-being forward.
And then you can start to already see how easy and how straightforward it is to see a misconception and then to respond in ways to bring well-being forward. And if you bring well-being forward, you don't have to do anything else. That's all that needs to happen.
Josette Luvmour | 02:43
Josette here. I want to say a few things about how children, long before they understand our explanations, are constantly reading far more than just our words. They're asking in themselves. Are you safe? Are you predictable? Can I trust what I'm seeing? Do your words match your presence? Children perceive the whole person. Even though they might not be able to articulate that. They notice our tone of voice, our facial expressions, bodily posture, timing, attention, our emotional states, and whether our nervous system is calm or reactive. They often know that we're frustrated long before we do or before we're willing to admit it. They know when we're distracted. They know when we're pretending.
So, the remarkable thing is that children are not primarily responding oftentimes to what we say. They're responding to what we embody. And this creates one of the most common misunderstandings in relationships with children. As adults, we often expect children to believe our words instead of trusting what they accurately perceive. We say, “I'm fine”, when we're clearly upset. And we say, "It's okay”, when our body communicates something entirely different, And then when children do the same thing, We call it dishonesty or poor behavior. The issue is not authenticity in the sense of saying everything we feel. But the issue is congruence. Do our words, emotions, and actions align closely enough that children can trust both us and their own perceptions?
So, throughout this conversation today, we'll use a simple framework that we call LEARN, L-E-A-R-N.
“L” is for Look—Look for the misconceptions about how the child perceives the world.
“E” is for Expectations—Notice when adult expectations don't match the child's developmental capacities.
“A” is for Alignment—when that mismatch continues, the relationship gradually falls out of alignment.
“R” is for Return—Return to the child's current field of knowing.
And “N” is for Nurture—Nurture that developmental field of knowing.
We don't have to parent perfectly. We simply return again and again to the child's developmental reality. And let that become our guide. And when we do that, Authenticity becomes less about technique and more about creating relationships that children experience as trustworthy, coherent, and deeply human.
Ba Luvmour | 05:54
Brandy, I think you should ask a question here about this next thing before I jump into it.
Brandy McCray | 05:59
Josette, you just mentioned that, If there is congruence and our words and emotions and actions align closely enough as adults that children can trust us, but they're trusting their own perceptions. So how we interact and how we are congruent within ourselves and in the relationship is how children are learning to trust their own perceptions. And I'm curious, how does that change over development in these different fields of knowing? How do children's perceptions change? And what are some of those common misconceptions in different fields of knowing where there might be that incongruence.
Ba Luvmour | 06:43
Those are great questions, Brandy. And I think with the ones all of us always want to know, let's get in the weeds. Let's see specifically how it plays out. Let's come up with practical, applicable responses. To these misconceptions.
So overall, each of the developmental fields have what we call being qualities. That is the qualities that really make us whole and human that includes:
Play, how do we play? And we play differently in the different fields of knowing. How do we organize time?
What values do we live for?
What about space? What is the space around us? How do we relate in it? How do we know who we are in the space in which we occupy? What identities, how do they form? And really importantly,
and things I don't really see in most other developmental approaches is...
Who do we respect? In the different fields of knowing, our whole notion of who to respect, who to really Look at twice. What is our sense of community?
What is love? Is love the same for a five-year-old as it is for a fifteen-year-old? When a child says, "I love you," Do we take it in ways according to our own perceptions or do we understand or connect to or relate to how a child lives and understands love?
Sex. Death. Aesthetic. And meaning-making - ultimately, what meaning is a child making in each of the fields of knowing?
And as we learn about this, we can relate much more deeply. And in fact, we can actually enter into the child's perceptual field. One of the reasons we can do this is because we have the same fields of knowing within us. We've all gone through them in one form or another. And so, as you listen and as we understand, to how the children do consciously how they know their world, we can find that in us. And then we can embody it. We can live in our own bodies, in the child's bodies, and embodiment happens. And then we are in what we call “being-to-being relationships”.
As Josette was saying, we’re not restricted to our words. And we're free of many of our expectations. Which are generated from only our own perceptions. Our own, in most cases, top-down adult perception and expectation and belief. But we actually enter into the way children know the world. And an understanding happens. In which we know one another. We don't only hear one another. We don't always only or care for one another. Of course those things are implicit. But we get to live as one another. We know the being.
So. Let's go into some examples.
Josette Luvmour | 10:14
Let's talk about children between the ages of 9, 81⁄2, 9, and 12, what we often call FeelingBeing. And an example I'd like to give is playing in relationship. among peers. Children this age commonly have the ability to feel all the feelings, even feelings that are not spoken. And they need opportunities to play with and navigate all of their feelings. And if they don't have that opportunity, relationships tend to suffer.
So, a parent says, "If you finish your homework now, then we'll go to the park later." and the child hears the promise emotionally rather than logically. Two hours later, something changes and the park doesn't happen. And the adult thinks, "oh well, plans change." and the child experiences, “you broke trust.” And for the FeelingBeing children, those children between nine and 12, relationships are everything. Relationships organize time more than schedules do. For the adult, Let's start with the adult. The adult.
You know, her words portray her perception. Sometimes things happen and plans change. For the child, they cleaned their room, they did their job, they're ready for the promise of going to the park, and it doesn't happen.
So, what is the child's experience? You broke trust. It's not fair. That's what you'll hear children say. It's not fair. And the parent will say, well, come on, try and understand. But that doesn't work for a feeling person.
Another example quite easily is a teacher will say in a classroom, "We'll talk about that tomorrow." For an adult, that's one day. For an 11-year-old, tomorrow can feel emotionally endless because anticipation is experienced in the present. Rather than as an abstract timeline. When's tomorrow?
Especially if the child is looking forward to talking about that topic or that subject.
So, we always have to understand the time sense of children is not the same as the time sense of an adult. And children perceive through their current consciousness, their current field of knowing, their current way of organizing the world. And time for a FeelingBeing child is relational. It's not by the clock.
Ba Luvmour | 12:42
Josette, I'm so glad you brought up the issues of time and play together because they're intrinsically connected in the way that we feel like we can engage the world, that we're present in the world.
George Bernard Shaw made a beautiful comment,
"We don't stop playing because we grow old.
We grow old because we stop playing.”
And as you see as we'll go through this day together today, Play is just a way of being in the world. It's a way of engaging the world. According to different ways of knowing the world, but not being overly full of yourself.
Having humility and learning and growing and engaging the process.
So, when we look at the BodyBeing years, birth to eight, we see that children play with words. Remember that BodyBeing’s organized around rightful place. And one of the ways that we organize our space is with words. Especially in a society like ours that is so verbal linguistically oriented.
So, let's just take, for example…I was just talking with a grandfather today, actually. And he was talking about his grandchildren. And he was saying just this. He was saying, you know, when my kid, when my grandkid was an infant, I just enjoyed hanging around him. We got on the floor. We did this. We did that. Then around 18 months or two years, it got really hard to play with her. And it's like, I didn't know what to do and I felt myself distant. But now the child's four and a half or five, and boy, we are connecting. I'm taking the child down to the beach and we're looking at the shoreline together. And all this sort of thing.
Well, let's just stop and look at that and step back a second. So. Obviously, before 18 months, children are on the floor. They're kind of picking up the occasional word here or there. But they're also getting in their whole body, the tone, and the intention, if you will, of the word. So, when we're saying, “how great. Look, he stood up. He grabbed my finger and stood up, fell down. How cute.” It's what we call positive words. Yay, look at our kid growing. But around 18 months, or so. Children begin to toddle. They begin to more than toddle, they begin to move. And as they begin to move, we start saying things like, no, don't go there, that's hot. We start saying, “no, don't go over there. You can't cross. You can't walk out in the street,” whatever we might say.
So generally speaking, these are prohibitive comments. And we say them with intention. We want to create a boundary with them. And the child picks it up in their whole being. And they're going, wow, these words, man. Power. And they create space. Now the child's organizing for rightful place and basically by pleasant and unpleasant sensations. So prohibitive comments are unpleasant.
So now the parent comes along and so the parent starts saying something and the child doesn't want that to happen. Come over here and do this. And the child says, “NO”. Because “no” has been the word to play with to create the space that you want.
And then the parent goes, “oh my gosh.” And in the worst case, it becomes a test of wills. Come on! A test of wills with a BodyBeing child.
So, we have to be really careful of our tone. One of the graduate students that I mentored in their master's program, did a beautiful Masters [Thesis] on the actual tonality and general sensation-based environment that we create for a child when we're reading to them. When we're doing stories together. And she pointed out very carefully that it's much less the content of the story... She actually took on Dr. Zeus and as if a four-year-old is really going to get the Lorax. But who we are when we say it, how we enjoy, and how we engage the child being-to-being. That's when the child starts feeling safe and they start playing with words all over the place. And that's the advantage of the Shel Silverstein’s and all of the many word games and so on that come out in children's books.
So. they don't have a time sense that's outside of pleasant and unpleasant, And of course they have that incredible ability to just… I'm trying to think of the right word... people call it daydreaming. I call it letting their imagination just expand and grow and so on.
So, we have time, we have play, and we have words. And we have to be careful with our BodyBeing children. To make sure that we understand or be with them in the way they're living the words that we share with them.
Josette Luvmour | 18:16
Ba, that reminds me a lot of times when we're playing with children, all of a sudden, given our timeframe or our sense of time, we might say, “OK, that's enough. It's time to clean everything up.” And even if you do it with a smiling face and a good attitude, the child keeps playing the game. And the parent thinks, he's not listening to me. And the child thinks, we're playing. And the misunderstanding between parent and child is the adult is working to some time frame of needing to get something else done or turn their attention to something else. And the child is, “listen, this is fun, the sensorial experience. I'm immersed in my parents' world and they're immersed in my world.”
And they're not so quick to give that up.
So they don't have the time sense of a clock. Of what happens next. And so, easing children into the next moment is a careful thing. We want to be careful with that. The words don't just do it.
Ba Luvmour | 19:18
I just, I have a correspondence going with one of the subscribers in Substack. Which is where I try to bring a lot of NLR, Natural Learning Relationships forward. And she wrote a post. She's wonderful at just being with her child, and her posts are phenomenological. That is, she's always... looking back at herself, looking at the child. And she noticed that she was speaking to another adult, and said something about, there was some word devaluing or not okay in some way. And a four-year-old came over to her and said,
“I don't devalue.”
And of course, this child had no idea what the word devalued referred to. But because they were talking in general about her, she was tuning in. She picked up the word and it went in her body. The greatness is that this woman—she goes by the name Jen--just picked right up on that. And this is the way you do it. Bring her child in, hugged her. “It's not you, sweetheart. Grown-up word, my mistake”. Move on. And that's all that needed to happen. And she remarked about how her body relaxed and so on.
So, it's not just what we say to the child, it's what we say around the child.

Brandy McCray | 20:50
So far, we've talked about misconceptions from ages birth through around 12, what are some common misconceptions as children get older as they develop into the teenage years. People look at those with some kind of trepidation.
So, what are some misconceptions around IdealBeing.
Josette Luvmour | 21:16
This is a wonderful question because I don't know why it is that parents are so afraid of the teen years. Yes, teenagers are developing an individuation and moving into their own sense of self; but they're not separating from the family. They're just wanting to be in the family in a different kind of way. And oftentimes their ideas of love are projections for what the ideal should look like. And a lot of time, teenager projections can... be experienced by the parent as opposition.
So, teens tend to challenge parents, the people they trust the most. To challenge somebody, that requires trust and teenagers are looking for where they can rub up against and test out their ideals and try to become their own unique individual. All the while searching for their own core nature.
So, of course, while they do this, they try on a wide variety of identities. And it's very important not to take the teen's projections personally. Understanding that projection is the teen's way of digesting their world.
So... Their ideas of love. It's not always, but oftentimes can be idealistic, especially in the early teen years. 13, 14, and 15.
So, a 16-year-old might say, "You never understand me." And the parent immediately feels rejected and starts defending themselves. Of course, I do. I think about you all the time. Remember the other day I took you shopping and we did this and we did that. But the teenager is not making an objective assessment of the parent. They're trying to separate from childhood, not from the family. And they're really trying to test out their own identity.
So, if the parent can remain steady instead of taking it personally, the relationship actually becomes stronger. The teenager is looking for, “I want to become my own unique self” and In all honesty, “I might not understand myself even.”
So sometimes when a daughter suddenly rejects everything her mother likes, for example, her different music, different clothes, different politics. I remember one time we were going out to the movies and my daughter said, “you're not going to wear that, are you?” And I was like, “yeah, I thought it was kind of cool.” And she was so [laughter]... but oftentimes when that happens, a parent might feel rejected, But, for teen development, she's just discovering herself by pushing up against what shaped her. You know, parts of her mom that shaped her. And that push is often an expression of trust rather than the absence of love.
So, teenagers can appear challenging but there's such a rewarding relationship of loyalty and trust that's still there. And even expands as we give children, teenagers particularly, the opportunity to express their ideals and explore their identities.

Brandy McCray | 24:46
Pause here for a moment because we have something really exciting to share. So many of you have reached out asking how to get involved or... How to explore this work more deeply, and we're happy to say that in July, we're launching the Natural Learning Relationships Introductory course. This seven-week experience offers an introduction to the ideas we explore here on the podcast.
So, child development, relationships, well-being, and the innate capacities that unfold through human development. People often tell us that this work transforms not only the way they see children, but the way they understand themselves,
and their relationships and the people around them. This introductory course can be taken on its own or it can serve as the first step in our 12-month certificate program—which includes 10 courses and a practicum.
And because this work is deeply relational, we intentionally keep the cohort very small. Enrollment for the July cohort is already open. Folks are enrolling and participation is capped at eight people. If you'd like to learn more or express interest, visit www.transformativedynamics.org - and fill out the interest form.
Or, check the links in the show notes.
One more thing.
Thank you to everyone who's already sending questions and reflections about the podcast. Every few episodes, we'll be setting aside time to respond to listener questions directly on the show. You can send questions or comments to the contact form on our website or by emailing Ba directly.
ba@luvmourconsulting.com
All right. Let's get back to the conversation.

Brandy McCray | 26:36
So, what about in the ReasonableBeing age range.
So, after teenagers have explored their ideals and their identities, what are some misconceptions about that age range of around 18 to 22-ish. Because this is not an age range most people think of development. Maybe teenage years are where it ends and then there's young adults. But Natural Learning Relationships singles out that age range, as there something really important that's happening and organizing in that young adult age range.

Ba Luvmour | 27:21
It's so important to stop and really understand what's happening. Because the idealistic perceptions which Josette was just describing do not account for the complexity and interconnectedness of the world. I can't just project myself into the world and have it bend to my will. What I need to do at this point is go into a profound understanding and relationship of interconnectedness and start seeing how whole how the whole works, how the whole is more than the sum of the parts, how the parts are systems, and within the systems there is the wholeness that emerges.
So, there's this growth in the sense of time. But we're not seeing it as much in a linear way as more in an emergent way. And we're emerging into a profound understanding of values that sustain over time. The ReasonableBeing nourishments are a response to this interconnectedness. We want to recognize that this child, this young person—Young for me, anyway. Has, needs to…they are moving into equality. They're asking the same kinds of difficult questions. That all of us are asking. What is the meaning? How do I live in a world galactically vast. How do I live in a world where I feel a love, but I want a love that sustains over time? I want friendships or engagements that I feel have a future. There's a sense of time and past and future that's very real.
“Who am I now? And who am I going to be? And who was I?”
One of the challenges that we have is often in the 18 to 23 years instead of following how the child, and allowing for opportunities for how the child makes meaning, we impose it. [we often ask:]
“What are you going to do when you're out of college or when you leave high school and travel or get a job?”
“Is this your whole life?”
“Has your whole life been determined in high school?”
“Are you going to be determining your whole life now?”
And in this way, we create anxiety about a future. Instead of allowing the meaning to unfold. Josette and I sat with, just for an afternoon with some women in Mills College in Oakland. And we asked them again and again, you know, well, what do you like and what don't you like about college and Mills and so on?
And the answer that they gave that we've heard often enough is …
“I can't believe I have to go into debt.”
“And because I have to go into debt, I'm channeled into certain majors, ones that have social economic future. Not my interests, not my meaning, not my purpose. But I have to study these things, which are somewhat interesting, I won't deny that, but they're not really what I'm called to do.”
I've heard adults say, “well, what do you mean called to do? How would you know that at 20? How would you know that at 19?” And so on.
And this is the misconception. Because, [the young individual voice says,]
“No way do I have to have that answer. I have to have the yearnings. I have the yearning. I have to have that yearning honored. I have to have that yearning nourished. And if I have that yearning nourished, even if the major I choose or the passion or the calling I'm following through on. Even if that is not what my life work's going to be. Nevertheless, what happens is a sustenance in my being. That I have the courage and the resilience and really, the existential wisdom instead of existential dread about the future. That who I am, I can bring that forward here. And so, as my life changes and grows and my understanding of myself changes, profound self-reflection. And the world and the interconnectedness unfold in meaning. I can change, I can adapt. And I get that change is one of the constants. One of the values through times and the deeper value for me is that I am part of that and that I can allow the unfolding of who I am rather than the restriction in terms of social norms or Societal Expectations.”

Josette Luvmour | 32:41
You know, Ba, you bring up a really good point. Oftentimes, a college student who would spend years studying to become someone in one track, let's say a lawyer suddenly says,
"I don't actually think that's the life I actually want."
And a parent might worry that they've become confused. But actually, what's happened is their values are becoming more clear. And they start asking themselves, "What values will sustain me for the next 40 years?" and values and principles become closely aligned. And kids often change track in their college years. I know of a kid who was volunteering in a food bank here in town and the parent asks this kid, "How is that going to help your career?"
And the young adult, the individual, was beginning to ask much deeper questions like, "Well, what do I really want to become? I'm not sure yet."
And career is no longer the only organizing principle. Values really begin to outweigh achievement and so If a young, reasonable person starts steering their ship towards values and not towards high-end careers that the adult wants them to. That usually requires a lot of sensitivity and inquiry as the adults and the young individual dialogue back and forth.
Ba Luvmour | 34:14
Yes, absolutely. And there's one other aspect just on what you just mentioned, Josette, that I would like to mention, and that is because the principles and the values get so tied up in the economic future that sometimes the child is involved, in fact, quite often in a discipline or an academic pursuit, that is part of what they want to do and they love. But then they get into certain climates like publish or perish or these other kinds of restricted comments and the pressures then undermine or challenge the principles so dramatically that we then lose the passion we had for the subject that we were engaging.

Brandy McCray | 35:05
Ba you mentioned the word... Resilience. And I'm curious how This all relates to resilience and misconceptions, congruence, incongruence.
How does that all relate to resilience within a child or not
or a child not having resilience?
Josette Luvmour | 35:27
Great question. You know, we're talking a lot today about authentic relationships, and that has to do with building trust. Understanding the child's sense of time, what they're capable of loving, what they're capable of valuing. What their relationship to play is and entering the child's worldview and playing with them In that worldview, and that is authentic relationship.
And authentic relationships build resilience in children. And resilience is much more than a growth mindset. For example,
let's just say a child forgets their lunch at home.
Instead of saying, “you need to be more responsible.”
The parent helps solve today's problem while allowing the child to experience the natural consequence. The child discovers, I made a mistake, and the relationship is still secure.
And that experience builds resilience.
It's not a punishment. It's not like, well, you forgot your lunch, so you're just going to have to not eat. No, that's not what we're trying to convey. We're trying to still be in relationship. You might even choose to bring the child their lunch or call up the school and make sure the child has [access to] a... cash fund that the child can get lunch…or what have you.
So, it's just about maintaining a positive relationship.
Or let's say two friends argue in a playground. And rather than immediately separating them for the rest of the day, the teacher can help them repair the relationship. To learn from the experience. Conflict doesn't end relationships, quite the contrary. We oftentimes have to continue on relationships for work reasons or a wide variety of reasons for people we have temporary conflict with.
So, teaching children how to repair strengthens them.
That builds resilience.
Ba, I see your hand up. Did you want to say something?
Ba Luvmour | 37:26
Thanks, teach...
What I really want to talk about is education. So that was very appropriate to pass it over that way.
So, what are some misconceptions in education as we approach children? I'm hoping and I'm guessing that many of you listening can already see the problems in, for instance, curriculum. But let's talk about some other things that probably aren't looked at very often. There is an emotional issue about the conflicts and values between home and school. We see this very often in populations of different ethnicities of all sorts, trying to make sense out of a curriculum or the expectations about behavior.
In a classroom, the way language is used for that, and just in general, I know in my life, I was brought up with [the value], you never, ever…I would say rat out a friend. You never squeal is I guess the appropriate word about a friend. And yet I was put in a situation, and I know many children are, in which they were expected by the administration or the teacher to say something about a friend that would get that friend into trouble.
So, what is the ethos? What are the expectations, both implicit and explicit, in a school? And what are the expectations at home? And what can we do at home to work with this?
Well, we have to recognize, first of all, that there is this conflict of values. And then we have to Back off. And help the child learn and, well Josette, you talked about resilience, but even more so allow the child's values to come forward. And see how they can be honored and respected. In the school environment.
I know people are excited these days about social emotional learning and I want to acknowledge that as a step in the right direction. But, there is not really an example or an opportunity for children to really come forward with their feelings in a given moment. Without some sort of self-consciousness and feelings of censure if they say the quote "wrong thing" unquote. This is the main confusion and misconception I want to point out is the feeling, the emotional qualities, the emotional values, the emotional way of being that is often different between home and school. And if we can just stop and be with that.
What happens when a child comes home and says, my teacher plays Favorites? Does the parent say, “you'll get over it, just make sure you do well.”
What does the parent say in that moment?
When the parent comes to the teacher and says, "Hey, you know, my child feels you may be playing favorites.” Does the teacher say, “well, your child talks in class” or your child you know, … whatever … has some sort of comment, or deflecting, or equivocation type comment?
Or, does that teacher take responsibility and say, hey, you know, in our environment, it's really hard to honor everyone in ways that they feel okay. Maybe we can talk about it together with the child and so on.
These are the ways that we can just very simply honor what's going on. But first we have to recognize the misconception first. We have to know that Something is not working. And find a way to contact the child, to nourish those fields of knowing.

Josette Luvmour | 41:38
You know, to add to that, I've seen adults, some adults who will express their feeling of disappointment that, say, the homework didn't get done or the room didn't get cleaned or the trash didn't get taken out. But follow that up with relationship. For example, well, I'm disappointed that the homework didn't get done. But I'm upset. But we'll figure it out together.
So, the child hears, "Adults have feelings, but relationships stay safe. Problems can be solved.”
And I think those kinds of messages are not double binds. On the contrary, they let the child know, “we're going to take a minute. We're going to settle this out. We're going to stay connected.” There's no threat to the relationship.
Brandy McCray | 42:25
I want to go back to the beginning, Ba. When you shared that there's no misconception that is fatal. That Well-being is always close to the surface and can reorganize to come forward. There might be parents or educators who are listening to the podcast and might be having feelings that they're not perfect or how to move forward.
So, I'm curious, what would you say to that?
Josette Luvmour | 42:51
The most fortune thing. Is to go ahead and make your mistakes, we all do, goodness knows. But be willing to admit your mistake when you make one. And I've said to many children, well, that was a mistake.
I want to do a do-over here. And adjust. And move on.
Ba Luvmour | 43:12
It just happened this morning. I became frustrated. And in my confusion, when I went to speak to my granddaughter, I acted in a frustrated way with her. But I wasn't frustrated with her. I was frustrated by the ridiculous automobile service agency and their incredibly poor form of communication. But because I was frustrated about that, when I went to speak with her, I spoke in a frustrated tone.
Well, first of all, parenthetically, thank God for empowered children, because when they tell the truth... it is so powerful. She's 20 and she said, well, you know, you say you don't judge, but when you came in, you talked to me that way, I feel you're judging me.
And I stopped and I had to look at that. And that was just a beautiful comment. And I trust her and she trusts me. She trusts me to say that. And so, I stopped and I was with it. And I realized, well, I wasn't judging her at all. I was frustrated and it came out that way, but she legitimately took it as if I was frustrated with her. It's completely legitimate. And so, where's the responsibility for this?
So, we dialogued about that, and about relationship. Her outcome was< “Yeah, be frustrated. I know you have all these different crazy feelings going through you. But just remember that if you say it in frustration, you still have the obligation with whom you're speaking.”
And I felt just like, “Wow, that was so cool.” Because, I did have the kind of default place in me of sometimes, I will say sometimes, expressing my frustration and not really realizing the effect it's had on others.
I know Josette's going to take us through the L.E.A.R.N. acronym again. It's so important. Respect. The word respect means to look at twice. Spec, like in spectacles, to look…and “re” like, to do it again. Stop, learn, self-reflect, participate. And by all means, just learn.
And then that's the answer to your question, Brandy. And it's right here and it's right in front of us.
Josette Luvmour | 45:52
So, thank you for the segue to go in to reiterate that we're not needing perfect adults. We are not expecting or suggesting there's any such thing. But we just need to be willing to look beyond behavior. To understand how the child is experiencing their world. And to recognize when their own expectations exceed the child's developmental capacities, our own expectations. And we need to notice when alignment has been lost. And understand that relationships can always be repaired, and also to return to the child's current field of knowing as a guidepost.
Instead of expecting the child to think feel or behave beyond their developmental capacities, which would be so much more convenient for the adult, but not what the child is capable of.
And then we have to continue to nurture that field of knowing, remembering that mistakes are not always a problem. They don't have to become big problems. We can make them very small bumps in the road and carry on.
So, Look. L-E- Expectations, Alignment, A, R, return to the child's current field of knowing, and N, nurture that field of knowing. Our willingness to learn, repair, and begin again…is what strengthens trust.
Brandy McCray | 47:28
I had my own moment of learning and aha as I was reflecting during our podcast planning. And it was around this continuous friction point with Max and I where it's summertime, our schedule changes during the summer, I work remotely, He's got, you know, various activities. But it has to run in a very tuned schedule for it to all come together.
So, I noticed when it was coming time for us to do different chores together and do things around the house, including like cooking, laundry, that kind of thing... Max was really pushing against me in that way. And that's kind of a new thing. And as I was reflecting, I was like realizing he's in FeelingBeing. And I have been holding this feeling space, so when it's time to do the dishes, and do the laundry. I myself in my own feelings. Ugh, I don't want to do this. I'm so busy. I got to do a meeting in an hour and I have an attitude about it.
And so, I walk out of a meeting and it's time to go do these things. And it's
being-to-being in connection. Max can sense that I don't want to do it either, that I have my own attitude about it. And it's not shocking to me that he's mirroring that right back because it's not fun. Where it used to feel more like play when we would be unloading the dishwasher together or folding the clothes. We used to do it in a more playful way and without even realizing it, I had turned into the drill sergeant of chores instead of the playmate. And through my own feelings of stress of having certain things to get done at certain times.
So that was a space where, this... I could see how he's relating directly to my own feelings about it. He's mirroring me. And it's not him. It's me. I'm no longer playing in this field.
Josette Luvmour | 49:36
So you were being authentic with what you were really feeling?
Brandy McCray | 49:39
Yes, finally, I was being authentic with what I was really feeling. Well.
Josette Luvmour | 49:45
Yeah, that's because authenticity is not a technique. It's an ongoing practice of engaging and aligning ourselves and our presence and our understanding and with the child's field of knowing, which you aptly did.
Ba Luvmour | 50:02
Well, I just want to comment on one thing, Brandy, because you just brought up something so important. And that is, how do we approach what it needs for a home to be together? And do we do it with, hey, we're doing this together, it's relational, we're in it together, and there's many ways we can do that according to our own family, our own way of doing things. If it's chores... as soon as that word, what happens when you hear the word chores? You're laughing, Brandy, and cutting your throat. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Why does it have to be chores? It's just, here we are, this is what our home needs, and here we go.
So, but you just described that beautifully.
So, friends, coming down to the end here. And my last comment is, if relationships continue to suffer, then we just need to apply more concentrated long-term remedies. If they become chronic, if what we're saying here doesn't allow for the movement back into resilience and back to wellbeing quickly. What can we do in terms of our life and lifestyle? How can we diagnose? And how can we respond in ways that Bring well-being forward. That's what we'll be talking about in our next podcast, Long-Term Remedies. And so, friends, we've come to the end of this podcast.
Please visit our webpage. www.Transformativedynamics.org
to learn more about Natural Learning Relationships and our dual certificate program. There, you can learn all you need to know about joining our next cohort. Which is forming now.
So this is Ba Luvmour.
Josette Luvmour | 52:06
And Josette Luvmour.
Brandy McCray | 52:09
And Brandy McCray.
Ba Luvmour | 52:11
This podcast is dedicated to all children everywhere and always. See you in two weeks.

Bios for Podcast:

Bios Josette Luvmour, PhD is an educator, consultant, and author and lifelong student of human development. Throughout her career, she has helped parents, educators, and communities better understand how people grow, learn, and thrive at every stage of life. She co-developed Natural Learning Relationships, a holistic approach that supports healthy development in families, schools, and community settings. Josette teaches through Antioch University's Individualized MA program and the Transformative Learning Foundation. Drawing on a lifetime of experience in yoga, meditation, and mindfulness, she brings together practical developmental insight with a deep understanding of personal and spiritual growth. She is the author of Grow Together: Parenting as a Path to Well-Being, Wisdom, and Joy and other works on nurturing human potential. She lives in Portland, Oregon, in an intergenerational household, where many of the principles she teaches are woven into everyday life.

Ba Luvmour, MA is an educator, author, and developmental consultant who has spent more than 50 years helping people understand themselves and their unique paths of growth. He cocreated Natural Learning Relationships, an approach that weaves together insights from neuroscience, human development, spirituality, and cultural traditions to support learning and well-being throughout life. Over the years, Ba has founded and led innovative schools, taught at the university level, and worked closely with families, educators, and communities. He currently teaches with the Transformative Learning Foundation, where he continues to explore how learning can foster greater awareness, resilience, and connection. A dedicated practitioner of yoga and meditation for much of his adult life, Ba brings a grounded, reflective perspective to his work. He is the author of Nurturing A Child's Consciousness, Beyond Metaphor, and other books focused on human development and lifelong learning. Ba lives in Portland, Oregon, as part of an intergenerational family, where the principles he teaches remain a daily practice.

Brandy McCray, MA is an educator, learning strategist, and developmental practitioner who has worked with children, educators, nonprofits, and communities for more than 15 years. She serves as Director of Talent Strategy and Development at City Year, where her work brings together human development, learning, leadership, and systems change. As a practitioner of Natural Learning Relationships, Brandy is passionate about understanding how human capacities emerge through relationship and how the conditions for well-being can be nurtured in both children and adults. Her work is guided by a deep curiosity about learning, consciousness, and creativity. Brandy lives on the coast of North Carolina with her son, Max. Creativity, curiosity, and a love of lifelong learning remain at the heart of her work and life.