How Do You Know? The Human Capacity for Knowing

Brandy McCray | 00:04
Hello, I'm your host Brandy McCray for the podcast Nurturing a Child's Consciousness. This is a podcast about relationship, consciousness, and well-being, especially as those realities live in children and the adults who care for them. This is a space to explore wholeness. Each episode invites us to look at how we know our world, and how children know theirs. What becomes possible when relationship rather than performance becomes the foundation? If you're a parent, an educator, a caregiver, or simply someone who can feel that life holds more than just managing and getting through the day, you're in the right place.
Hi everyone, welcome back. Today's podcast episode asks the question, How do you know? And examines how children organize their experience and construct meaning. Today, we will clarify different Fields-of-Knowing and address common confusions that arise when adults mistake learned conditioning for true self-knowledge. To start us off, Ba, could you share more about the background of Natural Learning Relationships and how this relates to today's topic, of the human capacity for knowing?
Ba | 01:13
Well, in 1986... Josette and I were sitting on our back deck on our eight acres in the Sierra Mountains. And were enjoying the great life that we had put together. We had a meditation facility that we loved, Josette makes her own clothes, she's an incredible seamstress. We grew our own food. And we were independent students and scholars as well as spending so much time in inner explorations. And one of us said, “what would a human being be like? What are our natural capacities? If we weren't so hampered by conditioning?” And we had seen very clearly, and it's common knowledge, that so many of the confusions and unnecessary suffering that happens in life happens in childhood, the confusions, the way people are brought up, the different belief systems that are imposed upon children, and so on, And so we started to ask that question, who is a truly natural child? Natural simply means that which we're born with.
So, what are we born with? And what are those capacities? And that started Natural Learning Relationships because we started to look at our own child. At the time, we were heading up a homeschooling collective, quite a big one, actually, for homeschooling size, that is. That included classes with other people, with other students and other families. And we got to sort of start to play with some of our ideas in the different courses that we were leading for the homeschoolers.
Then one day, some of the parents got together and said, “how come our children are so much happier when they come home...from your class than they usually are?.” And that was a bit surprising to us, but we started to think, well, we are doing something here. Based on this understanding that we've been developing. And we started to put it together and we started to understand that the consciousness of children, that is, how do they know? We started to ask that question. How do we know? What are we born with? How does it develop? And how does the child, can we see through the child's eyes? Can we feel through the child's heart? And can we understand how they know the world? And that's really the beginning of Natural Learning Relationships and through the many years It's been refined, and refined, and refined. Relationship has become more and more prominent. Because we understood quite early that, “capacities are innate, but development depends upon relationships.” And if we don't have the relationships to bring forth those innate capacities, then in fact they will not develop.
So then when you start to look at it that way, we looked at anthropology, cultural anthropology, brain science, spiritual philosophies. All forms of education, as many forms of psychology as we could explore again, and again, and again. We started to realize that the children actually are seeing the world in a very holistic and meaningful way. They're starting to, they organize their world around well-being. They're always trying to see and connect to the world through well-being. And we started to ask ourselves, well, how exactly does that organization work?
Brandy McCray | 05:10
Thank you, Ba. And it brings up more questions for me around, “What is this knowing thing? What is knowing? What did you observe? And how does that relate to how children see and organize their world?”
Josette | 05:28
Well, when we talk about the nature of knowing, we're not talking about what we know. Or what we've been told. And we're not talking about what we've learned to repeat. But what we're really talking about is, how do we know something is true?
So, in Natural Learning Relationships, knowing is not treated as information gathering. It's not an accumulation of information. It's not about performance. It's not even about the ability to give the right answer. Knowing is something we live. It's lived. It comes from direct experience. It has a sense of wholeness. And as Ba was saying, it is relational.
So, the root meaning of knowing points to intimacy and direct contact with experience. So, when we ask, How do you know? What we're really asking is, It's the source of your knowing. What? Part of you is organizing that experience. Or What is shaping meaning right now? And this is where children show us something very precise. Children do not all know the same way. In Natural Learning Relationships, we describe this through what is called Fields-of-Knowing.
So instead of fixed stages, as in stages of development, we look at how a child organizes experience at a given time or at a given age. To each field-of-knowing is a complete way of knowing unto itself. We're saying nothing essential is missing. Nothing is incomplete. But each field-of-knowing is different. Their knowing or the child's knowing changes as they gain greater access to more complex Fields-of-Knowing And if we do not understand those differences, we will misunderstand the child.
Brandy McCray | 07:40
So Josette, you were describing Fields-of-Knowing. And you mentioned instead of fixed developmental stages, that the Fields-of-Knowing are how a child is organizing their experience at a given time. Could you give a more concrete definition of the field-of-knowing? Really bring it alive for the listeners.
Josette | 08:04
Okay, I'll give it a try. These fields are not rigid categories. They're open. They're flexible spaces where children explore. And create and organize their world. Each field-of-knowing has its own qualities. They shape how children perceive, how they relate, and how they learn. They create opportunities for both the child and the adult to share in that experience together. But let me get a little more specific here with age ranges.
In Natural Learning Relationships, we describe four primary successive Fields-of-Knowing The first one we labeled Body Being, it goes from zero to seven. And the child experiences the world through physical sensory experiences and movement, touching things, crawling over things, crawling under things. It's a sensory way of knowing their world. From the ages 8 through 12, we call that field-of-knowing the Feeling Being field-of-knowing. And the child organizes their experience primarily through emotions and relationships and the feeling relationships with others. From 13 through 17, we call that range Ideal Being. Because the teen engages with the world through imagination and making meaning and possibility. Really projecting their ideals onto the world. And from 18 to 23, we call... Reasonable Being and the age range 18 to 23 is the field-of-knowing in which the individual develops thinking their logic, their understanding, relating to the world through systems and systems creation.
So the word "being" in each of these four primary developmental moments refers to the child's essential nature at that moment. So the first part of each term the either body being or Feeling Being describes how they are organizing their world. And in this approach, each field-of-knowing is defined by how the child makes sense of their experience. Nothing essential is missing at that point. Each field is fully supported and supports the child's well-being when it is met with the right support.
So then, of course, we see transitions between Fields-of-Knowing. And as you may recall from the last podcast, there are transitions between each field-of-knowing as well.
So, transitions matter. We need to pay attention. Because during transitions, certainty dissolves for the child as well as for the parents. Certainties are thrown into question by the awakening of the new developmental needs and because the child is perceiving the world differently. And it's new. And they've never done it before.
So the child becomes vulnerable. New capacities begin to emerge. Old ways of knowing no longer fully organize their experience the way it did before.
So this means the entire family is about to undergo profound change. And if adults sometimes cannot recognize this moment, they often misinterpret what they see.
So, an adult may call it a regression or may call it, you know, a passing behavior. And they may try to correct it. But what's actually happening is a reorganization. And this happens throughout childhood. As the child develops new awareness, that sets the imperative for expanded relationships. But that's a larger topic, so right now let's stay with how we know.

Brandy McCray | 12:15
Thank you, Josette. As you've set the stage and shared briefly about each field-of-knowing. I'm curious if we could paint a picture for parents. To really help them understand how they can identify each field-of-knowing or what each field-of-knowing is like for the child.
So, let's get into the weeds a little bit. So, Ba, take it away. Let's start with body being.
Ba | 12:43
Okay, well, as Josette said, the child is experiencing the world through physical sensation and movement. And I want us to be really careful here to understand how profound that this is. The child is looking like this is a big world. I'm pretty little. How do I find my way in it? How am I safe? Where do I belong? What's my rightful place? And I have this really frankly miracle of being able to have this sensory information come in and I literally... Make an internal topographical map, of the sensation vibrations, if you will, or the sensation experiences, to use that word, of the world around me.
So, I get a feel, I know this is safe. This isn't. This is where I belong. This is interesting because I am looking for ever more textured of physical sensory experiences.
So, I'm developing this sense of place. I'm developing... ooh, I'm here. Wow. On this planet? Wow! with these people. Really Wow. What am I going to do now? And so, but of course, I have the words, I have the I have all those various experiences. I start to develop ability to make differentiation. And so on, and all this is literally as a topographical map within. And as I grow through these seven years, that map gets more and more sophisticated. And the places take on more and more texture in and of themselves. So I really can develop my body in this world In a way that makes me feel safe, strong, and I belong. In the same process, it's all play. It's all play. And one of the mistakes people make is how they talk with children and the words they use. And they don't understand that children this age, it's the sensory value of play. And I eventually understand where is safe and great to explore more by the sensory value of the words, than I do of the abstract meanings.
So, it's, for instance, a common confusion to say If we do this, then we'll do that. Which implies a time sense that's really not there for a sensory-based wisdom, a sensory-based understanding. That lives in these children. And I'd like to offer two examples pretty quickly. One was in a book I read a long time ago by a pediatrician and psychologist named Daniel Stern. And he calls it, diary, I think, diary of a child. Diary of a Baby. And in it, though, he talks about this four-year-old. Who's walking with his mom and he describes the map really beautifully.
And then as they go to meet some relative or whatever at a train station, the child who's wandering in his own sensory world because he's got the vibe with his mother, he's got the sensation connection with his mother intact, starts spinning out. And as he spins out through the train station, he comes across, or she, comes across another child. And that child's got a different sensory quality than all these adults around.
So, he gets entranced. With that sensory world and all of a sudden, the sensory connection with his mom is lost in the busyness of the train station. And Stern describes it as an ice cracking. And all of a sudden, the child is lost. And lost is completely unacceptable to this four-year-old child.
So, I appreciate it that confirmation of Natural Learning Relationships came from the outside. But I'd like to also offer one experience. We ran family camps, for many years. And family camps were seven-day experiences in which the whole family came together. Often ten families. They didn't know one another. They learn Natural Learning Relationships, and not for the subject of this podcast, but the whole family camp was run as a Rite of Passage.
So, it was a very deep. And meaningful camp. At any rate, I had developed a relationship with this young body being a girl and we had developed friendship through play. And as kids this age love to do, I started to play chase with her. And so, I get kind of close and then she turned around and she'd go, NO. And I'd stop. And then she ran further away. And I'd start to run and she went, NO. So, she stopped me almost before I started. And using her words, she gradually created a cocoon around us. Deciding when I could get closer and when I would have to stay further away.
Brandy, everyone, the world disappears. I was completely enlivened in this sensory world, this sensory cocoon and with this young girl, it was such learning for me. Because that's how the words are used. They're used to reorganize the space around them. To create my sense of place and my sense of belongingness.
So, Body Being children need consistency. They need warmth. They need physical safety. They need sensory engagement. And, threat Is a close down. Threat says I have to close and protect. And so that is certainly not what we want here. We want actually a lot of flexibility, a lot of understanding, and a lot of being able to just sink down.
Just one last quick little story. I used to go into people's homes at times when they would call for me in the consulting capacity. And I walk into this home and I say, you know what? Let's just go around this home. On our knees. I said to the parents. And so we go around on our knees and they see…”oh my God, this table's got this sharp edge right at this kid's eyesight.” We just reorganize the whole physical environment based on going around on our knees. And I put myself out of a job. They didn't need me anymore. All the problems just disappeared because the child hadn't been feeling safe. Hadn't been their home, hadn't been a belonging place.
So we want to observe a child's body because they're telling the truth through their body. This is not an age of masking. Our feelings. This is an age of…”My body, it's alive, and I'm registering my truth, my experience right through it.”
So that's a little bit about Body Being. But, lo and behold, what happens? We'll have to understand that Natural Learning Relationships is natural and nature is somewhat ruthless.
So, “here I am, I'm in my body, I've developed competency.” We'll talk about phases at some future podcast. “And I'm in my body, I'm competent.” Just look around at the Halloween costumes many of the seven and eight-year-olds wear. And you'll see how strength... as my young friend Stefan said once, “what are you going to do if a stranger stops, or offers you candy to get in the car.” And he said, “I'm going to just pick up a tree and knock that car over.” Which was completely accurate for him! That's how he saw he'd be able to refuse stranger danger. But, around age eight and a half or nine [the awareness of], “I die takes hold.” And just think, everyone, step into it. Awareness of death is earlier. Death in the sense of it's not coming back, death in the sense of the body gets cold. And those kinds of physical attributes. But when I die, my whole way of understanding the world. Rug has been pulled out from under my body is not my reference and the whole feeling center opens. And you can see this in a lot of ways. For instance, ask a 10-year-old to tell you about the book they might be reading or something they've seen or whatever. And they will give you, incredibly complex and detailed description quite often. The context of things becomes available. As opposed to the more concrete and simple communication that we want to do with the Body Being child. This child wants to understand the complexity of feelings. They want to learn how to trust and how to be trusted. And of course, This is a completely different way of organizing the world, and it's helpful for all of us to kind of visualize the child as seeing the world around them—their feelings having certain colors. Now, I'm not making the same kind of specific topographical conversation I had with the Body Being child, but I'm making a conversation about a way to understand that these emotions are flying through the child. And in the early years, eight, nine, ten, especially nine and ten. There's not a real filter.
So, they're receiving, and they're receiving all of these emotions and they have to figure out, “since I can't trust my body anymore, how do I create trust in the world?” They're always feeling. Always. They don't depend upon words. But the meaning of words come through by the way the words are delivered. Can't fake it. These children can sniff out hypocrisy in a flat-out second.
And asking for a reason, why do you feel that way? Who are you talking to? How many grownups, Brandy, I'll ask you, have said, I think I feel. I have to think I feel? I feel. I start there? Words, often attempt to mask hypocrisy. Do what I say, not what I do, et cetera. But, for the Feeling Being child, when they have a feeling relationship, when they get authenticity and fairness and relational honesty. When the space is allowing the emotions to come forward without people around them judging them. You shouldn't do this. You shouldn't do that. Conscience [develops].
Is conscience good and bad? Not in a holistic, not in a well-being frame, not in a Natural Learning Relationships frame. Conscience is our natural, incredible ability. To feel all the feelings. That's all. Feel them all. If you have people around them validating this incredible capacity, to feel all the feelings. The child will sort them according to what is trustworthy.
And then we as adults will be able to understand and feel how they organize trust. And we can ask ourselves, “are we acting in a trustworthy way?” And this is something Natural Learning Relationships is always...parents have to, everyone, elders, educators…we have to want to look back at ourselves. To ask ourselves, “How do we bring forward Trust.”
So that's a little bit about Feeling Being as well.
Brandy McCray | 25:50
Thank you, Ba. There's so much richness, and I could stay in Feeling Being for so long just because it's the active world I'm participating in with Max. But, Josette, I'm curious, could you share about the older kids. I know Ba has shared so far from birth until about age 12. What happens? In those teen years.

Josette | 26:17
The teen years are a really exciting time. Because the individual is, or the young teenager, is now beginning to individuate.
So they begin to organize. All their experiences through projecting their ideals onto the world and trying to make meaning out of that. And they see everything as a possibility. And the way that they know expands once again. The prefrontal lobes are developing very strongly during the teen years as they organize all the events of their lives to support an investigation into their own unique identity. And to extend their autonomy and explore personal freedom and personal power.
So, they’re looking at growing a knowledge of a healthy self as an autonomous self. Their knowledge of responsibilities that accompany their desired freedoms needs to expand, of course. And a formation of a healthy identity is what they're all about. Knowledge of social abilities is being explored in a wide variety of social situations. And they're looking for a right relationship to their personal power. They have more power in their lives right now than they ever had before. And so having a right relationship to that is a process of exploration. They have, of course, greater connections in the prefrontal cortex, really beginning to emerge during the teen years, which stimulates judgment. Judgment is learned from experiences, so not all teenagers come into their teen years with great judgment. But they're developing as they grow through the teen years.
And now they're starting to say, I'm an individual. And I have these ideals. And I want to stand for my ideals and what is meaningful to me, what is even possible in this world. And it can look intense. It can look contradictory at times, because a teenager will assert a particular ideal and of course watch that ideal fray at the edges, and they'll then assert another ideal that might be a polar opposite. But it can look like resistance, but it's actually healthy exploration. The thing is, teens will often assert mastery. As if they know. When there isn't really mastery yet. But the thing is, underlying these assertions is a very tender insecurity. That needs to be met with sensitive respect. We want to engage teenagers with careful inquiry. No longer are we telling them, we are now inquiring and stimulating thinking on their part. We’re giving them an opportunity to explore their ideals through inquiry, but never ever ridicule when they make a mistake. That's poison. And it hinders healthy development. But what is happening is the construction of a coherent sense of self. If we reduce this to, " this is just teen behavior," then we miss the developmental process. And if we control it or try to, we interfere with identity formation. But if we respect it sensitively, something very different begins to happen. The young person begins to know themselves. And they begin to find identities that actually match their core nature. And that is what they are looking for.
So, the other thing about teenagers is their sense of time is not the same as an adult's. It expands from the Feeling Being sense of time, which is all about friendships and relationships, into explorations of their identity and their social relationships and finding identities that match their core nature.
So if a teen is in the ideal being years, which is 13 through 17, they need from us an environment that is sensitive to respect their explorations. An inquiry that doesn't in any way ridicule their ideals, but explores it with them. We give them safe to explore meaning and not control.
I recall a time when I was riding in a canoe on a river trip with a teenager. From one of the families that we brought on the trip with us. Paul explained to me as he was steering the canoe that all the ideals of the bartering system and how we should barter instead of using money, because money is so impersonal. Bartering is so much more personal. He was very strong in asserting this ideal. And of course, as the adult in the situation in today's world, a bartering system obviously has its shortcomings, but we won't talk about that right now. But he was very adamant that this was the way to fix the whole financial economic crisis in the world, was to go back to the bartering system. So, in a conversation like that with a teenager, you're not going to put them straight. That's not what it's about. It's about engaging with them as they explore their identity. And playing with them in this exploration, not... correcting them.
The other thing about teenagers, historically, this is the age where most cultures would have a Rite of Passage for their young person as they pass from childhood into taking a more prominent place in the social structure of the tribe. And Rites of Passage are fantastic for helping teenagers to find in themselves the courage to step out into the social world with a new identity.
So we'll discuss Rites of Passage in another Podcast, but I do want to say that we do have a book coming out, probably in 2027 [on Rites of Passage called, Crossing the Threshold].
Anyway, let me not get hung up there. So let's go on to Reasonable Being, 18 through 23. The field-of-knowing in Reasonable Being becomes much more integrated. The individual begins to connect self and world. Not so
me-oriented, more globally-oriented. They develop perspective. They develop the ability to step into another's perspective and engage in that person's perspective and ask questions and have dialogue and bring that perspective back into themselves before they... adapt it or dispute it. And so perspective taking is uniquely a Reasonable Being skill. Ideal being teenagers are not quite able to do that just yet. They form at this age, 18 through 23, they're really looking for substantive values that last through time. Values like love, beauty, honesty, truth, justice. They engage in meaning-making and are looking for purpose that will last through time.
So, it's now that the young adult's individual sense of time expands to include the past? Who I was, my past experiences, how that led to who I am in the present? And what I might need to do in the present to project a future I would really like to live.
So, their sense of time really stretches out to past, present, and future. And this expanded perspective of time is fused with an expanded perspective of values. They want now to not just project ideals onto the world anymore, but to have values that will last through time. And so now knowing includes a much deeper ability to self-reflect. It includes discernment. Discrimination and the ability to act intentionally with intentionality. But this kind of knowledge cannot be forced early. I know a lot of folks say, that's exactly what I want for my teenager, but teens are ready yet. They're still forging their identities and testing their ideals into the world. Here, in the Reasonable Being field-of-knowing, it emerges from the foundation and the integration of all the earlier Fields-of-Knowing.
So their, Body Being sense of self and a sense of belonging, their Feeling Being sense of trust and the relationship to others, and the ideal being identities. So, when we ask a Reasonable Being individual, how do you know? We're asking, which field-of-knowing is active right now? Because that determines everything. It determines how the individual learns; it determines how they interpret their experience; It determines what kind of support actually helps.
So I want to give you a little example of a young woman we knew. Many years ago, I still know her actually. When she turned about 19, she wanted to travel. To visit saints and sages of different cultures to learn the meaning of life from a wide variety of different perspectives. And she traveled all summer long. One year. And visited different ashrams and visited different intentional communities. And she was able to, out of that experience, to formulate her own sense of meaning. And her own sense of purpose in life that she felt, she could take from that experience.
So, if a young adult is in a Reasonable Being, field-of-knowing what they really need from us. Is an environment that contains people who are willing to dialogue into meaning. People who are willing to take alternate perspectives on things before we assert our own. They are looking for people who will engage opportunities, to engage with complexity and not reduce everything to a simplification. But Reasonable Being from here, if developed well? Through the age of 23 and sometimes up to 25. Here, this is when Reasonable Being opens up to ever deeper, ever more. Complex ways of knowing in the adult years.
Brandy McCray | 37:41
I want to pause here for just a moment and share something with you. If you're interested in exploring this work more deeply, The Natural Learning Relationships introductory course will be launching soon. It's an eight-week experience open to anyone who feels drawn to these ideas in their life or work. And for those who want to continue, it's the first step in a longer journey, a certificate program that includes 10 courses and a practicum. Where a small cohort learns together and grows over time. To express interest, please visit www.transformativedynamics.org. And fill out the interest form or check the link in the show notes. All right. Let's come back to the conversation.
What you've both shared so far is so vastly different than the cultural norm around knowing.So, can you describe a little bit about some common misconceptions around knowing as adults relate to children?
Ba | 38:42
One of the most common happens as I was speaking earlier, in that year right around nine years of age. Because as the transition happens, a variety of behaviors will come forward. Wetting the bed, only wanting to play with young kids. And the parents will start to think they've done something wrong instead of providing just a nurturing envelopment to allow the child to return to themselves.
So, they'll think my God, something is terribly wrong here. And in fact, It's a medicated age in this psychopharmaceutical world. All too often. As to the misunderstanding of exactly what is going on for that child.
Josette | 39:29
You're talking about hesitancies. You're talking about the cyclic nature of development and it's not a linear process and a lot of times as children begin to shift from one field-of-knowing to another there's a huge hesitancy and a regression. Is that what you're bringing to the table?
Ba | 39:49
Well, yes, in this specific case. But also, parents have a hard time with transitions. They have a hard time with any change. And as you know, Josette, even though we haven't gone into it yet, there are many changes that happen in each field-of-knowing.
So. For instance, a body-being child at five or six will start to show tremendous competency. In moving through varied physical terrains. In using words in a seemingly sophisticated way or precocious. And it's lost that this is still a four or five-year-old child and safety and exploration of their place is what's critical. And so, they'll start insisting the child, you gave your word. You told me you would…
Josette | 40:43
So often adults want to make contracts and agreements with little children who are just not capable of carrying that contract through time because something new comes up and it's so exciting and it's so interesting. So, they're pushing into a different field-of-knowing. When the child is not ready. And I think that's what you're trying to convey there. Is that right?
Ba | 41:09
Yes, that's right. And it's great that you brought it back to words because it's a society that and really a culture and probably a worldwide culture that is verbal linguistically oriented. that is actually addicted to verbal linguistic information as the information. And they neglect what the body is speaking. They neglect the feeling qualities that are actually there in the relationship. And especially in the teen years, my goodness, Josette, you can talk to how many times The kids are called naïve. How many times the teens are seen as … Like my mother said to me, “I think you got stupider as you got older.”
Josette | 41:54
Well, you just stop complying with their sense of rules and regulations or safety. But, you know, a lot of times a child will comply or perform what they know the adult wants from them in their period of transition and confusion, they don't want to disappoint the adult because they love us dearly. And that doesn't mean when a child is complying, it doesn't mean they agree or they actually have learned something or that it's part of their nature now. It means that the child has adapted. But true knowing seems to have very different qualities. It's not just doing what is expected of them from the adults. It's grounded. It's more coherent. It's more internally organized. It's an intrinsic knowing versus external … performing for external validation. You have to be very precise when we're supporting a field-of-knowing. We have to understand what's coming forth in the child and how to be relational to that child's field-of-knowing rather than reinforcing some conditioning or some notion that we have as adults. You're really calling us to step into the child's way of being. And way of seeing and way of knowing the world. And not just perform because we're going to pressure them to perform the way we want them to.
Ba | 43:29
And Josette, as you've shown so deeply in the crazy amount of work you've done over the years, that if we take the time, we will find that field-of-knowing in us. After all, we did go through it. And you can't bury trust. You can't kill it. You can bury it. You can bury it and protect it. With certain kinds of behaviors. I know a Feeling Being child's who, actually, was so, so angry at the hypocrisy in his home community. That he just expressed that anger in the most vituperative and strong ways. And everyone put him down for the behavior. Rather than understanding, I need trust and I'm trying to protect something here and you're just wasting me here.
So knowing the [child’s] field-of-knowing not only puts us in the child's mind and heart, but it allows us to reawaken deeply, those Fields-of-Knowing in ourselves, which are often missing in our modern world.
Josette | 44:39
When we reflect on our own, what you're saying there, on our own childhood. Then oftentimes we see aspects of our field-of-knowing that we abandoned because we were succumbing to external pressure. To perform according to the social mores of the time. And this is where conditioning becomes a problem because conditioning can look like knowing. But it really isn't stable. It depends on external reinforcement continuously, rewards, and it often disconnects the child from their internal experience. When we want human beings who stay connected to their internal experience. All right. Performing for Rewards definitely interferes with the development of self-trust.

Ba | 45:37
And for us, it had happened right here in our own home for me. When our granddaughters turned to me and said, “Look Baba, you are great. We love you to the end of the world, but you don't live the world we live. And so be careful here with what you expect from us.” And thank goodness there was enough trust. There is so much trust in our relationships that they could tell me directly that some confusions that I was having in things that I was suggesting or expecting from them.
Josette | 46:13
So we have to be precise. We have to ask ourselves, are we supporting the child's field-of-knowing the way they know, the way they see? The way they are experiencing the world. Or are we reinforcing conditioning? Something that we're responding to in terms of what society expects from us? And those two things are definitely not the same.
Ba, I wonder if here you would go through flow of Natural Learning Relationships.
Ba | 46:46
Well, as we said, natural means that which we're born with. And natural, as we spoke about in the last podcast, when we said as above, so within. We connected NLR with the natural world and really, if you will, the cosmic world or the deeper world of spirituality and spiritual understanding. If you stop now and look back at the Fields-of-Knowing, you'll see that Body Being is a me-centered place. “I'm the center of the world. The world's an extension of my body. And it's me. I'm here and I need to know that I'm safe, secure, and present.”
But then here comes Feeling Being, and all of a sudden, we have to trust and we have to move out. And so, we're breathing out and we go, “who are these others? And how can I trust them?”
So I move from within a sense place to without, a feeling place that puts me in relationship with the natural world, with the people in my life. But here comes ideal being. I'm an ideal being says, “wait a minute. I have to know who I am. I have to grow into who my core nature, into my individuation.” And so that becomes an “I” place.
So, we went from “me” to “other, ” to “I”. And now here is Reasonable Being, which is so interconnected and always is looking for interconnection and interconnection in every single way—reflection, intention, a time sense that includes past and future. Such that I know, I understand that who I've been influences who I am. Which is an extraordinary understanding. And who I am being right now is going to influence the way my future unfolds. So now I've moved out again into interconnectedness.
So, it's “me, I, Self.” Feeling “other” Trust. “I” individuate, I need to know my core nature.” To “out into interconnectedness” in Reasonable Being. It's just incredible. That's the breath of nature.
Josette | 49:15
And when we align with the child's field-of-knowing, something really important happens. The child begins to trust their own experience. And that's the foundation of well-being because self-trust is not taught. It develops over time. It develops when the child's way of knowing is recognized and supported. It's about alignment with how development actually unfolds.
So, the next time we find ourselves asking whether or not a child knows something, we want to pause. And ask a different question. How are they knowing right now? Because that question opens the door to understanding. And understanding is what allows development to proceed in a way. That supports well-being.
Brandy McCray | 50:11
Well, thank you both for such a... Detailed overview of the Fields-of-Knowing and the most important question of how do we know as it relates to Natural Learning Relationships and in future podcasts, we're going to go even deeper.
So, I just appreciate the chance to give a detailed overview so that it sets up the next podcasts for the listeners. So, thank you both.
Ba | 50:39
Our friends, we've come to the end of the podcast. Next podcast, which we'll see in two weeks, is... TRUSTas the ground of development. And how we raise and bring forth self-trust in ourselves, our families, our education, our educational venues. We focus on how children develop self-trust. And why it forms the foundation for healthy relationships later in life. How we can connect early emotional and relational experiences with autonomy, discernment, and the ability to form satisfying partnerships and positive learning environments. In the meanwhile, visit our webpage. www.transformativedynamics.org. To learn more about Natural Learning Relationships and our dual certificate program. There you can learn all you need to know about joining our next cohort.
In the meanwhile, this is Ba Luvmour.
Josette | 51:49
And Josette Luvmour.
Brandy McCray | 51:52
And Brandy McCray.
Ba | 51:53
Wishing you optimal well-being for you and your loved ones.
Dedicated to all children. Everywhere and always. See you in two weeks.